Too many questions

Hello, Cruise7. Can't offer you much by the way of positive feedback, but I can give you some useful advice.

This male "friend" from your wife's work is a very grave threat to your way of life. He's a predator, a user and a manipulator. You're fooling yourself - possibly fatally - by telling yourself that your wife would never respond to his sexual overtures. When a woman run off the rails, she's an entirely different person - with moral 'values' utterly unrecognizable from those held by the woman you've known for more than 20 years. (Read "Basil Duke: An Introduction" and "Basil Duke: An Update" for my story.) She'll be capable of actions that will make you think that both of you have gone insane.

I'd perceive this 'just friend' as a lance poised to pierce your family's heart. Your wife and this individual are a very, very bad thing. You've GOT to establish and enforce boundaries on their interaction - as in, there can't be any. She's probably well on her way to becoming addicted to him. Do NOT expect him to do the right thing and walk away, because he won't; he's after sex - and a conquest. Even the threat of being beaten to death or shot won't deter him. It's the maddest, most inscrutible phenomenon of this entire trainwreck - aside from the trainwreck itself. He won't dwell for a second on the carnage he'll unleash across your family's landscape. These so-called "other men" are scum of the foulest order and odor.

You've got to establish, immediately, that you're not a doormat. I can't emphasize this enough. Be assertive and as unemotional as possible in your interactions with your wife. She MUST understand that she's dealing with a person of strength and conviction. Don't grovel or plead or offer to make deals with her. If she senses weakness in you, it's going to get a lot worse. Protect yourself and your children: see a lawyer and find out what your rights are. I know this probably sounds extreme and is distressing you, but I'd be doing you a terrible disservice by not giving you straightforward advice.

There's no quick fix. It's good that she's in counseling, but she's been just one time. And in more than a few situations, the woman will go a few times and then abruptly quit, explaining later to her enabler friends that "I went, but there's nothing wrong with me. But I tried!" And then she bolts.

Prepare for a seige.

Keep reading the threads, and keep posting.

Basil Duke
St. Louis, MO
Moderator

You are NOT out of the woods...this is just the beginning.  Going to a therapist doesn't mean that she is healed..it just means that she is starting the journey.

I must agree with Basil...just because she is not in denial doesn't mean that things won't happen or that the journey will not occur...I admitted my MLC from the very beginning...never in denial about it...but I was in denial about the role the OM played in MLC....which is what I am reading about your W.  BEWARE!  No married woman goes out to lunch alone with another man unless is it is totally business and they DO NOT have an "OUR SPOT".  Fact: Your wife was having an emotional affair with this man...they wouldn't meet like that unless they were...I don't care how much she denies it ...she wouldn't be interested or even risk it unless that man was doing something for her ego.

Start reading all the threads here...Make sure she knows your Deal breakers and your boundaries...KEEP talking as much as you can...the fact that she is talking about this guy doesn't mean they are not having an affair.  The only way you will know that it isn't an A is if she can easily end the friendship with no fuss....by that I mean NO CONTACT.  If she can't...I would start digging and looking to see how far this has gone.

We are glad you have found us...we are here when you need.

Shepherdess

One more important thing: Don't try to "talk" to her about her feelings - or what she might do tomorrow, or the next day, or a week away. Right now, her brain can't handle it. She'll recoil in disgust and exhausted frustration at the subject. The fact is, she doesn't know herself what she's thinking or what she wants to do. All she knows is that she's confused and unsatisfied and numb. She does not want to talk about what's going inside her, because she can't describe it for herself - much less you. If you can back away, and stay strong and ostensibly neutral, it'll be to your benefit, as weird as it sounds.

Basil Duke

Thank you.

How do you set boundaries without an ultimatum? What are the consequences?

I guess you can't really establish boundaries without consequences for your wife if she crosses them. The two are tethered. The other 'man' is a very serious problem for you, as I and Shepherdess have both noted. Your wife must understand that she can't see him any more. And if she does? Well, how far are you willing to take this? I would dearly love a do over on my own trainwreck, which featured four primary "OM" moments: the first was the all-night work party; the second was the night I caught the two of them together at their "spot" (a bar near their office) when my (now ex) wife claimed to be out with a girlfriend. The third was the night I confirmed their sexual affair, and the fourth was really a second D Day - a couple of weeks AFTER the first D Day, when my ex had left the house for the weekend to "get away and try to get my thoughts together." (In reality, she was shacked up at a friend's place with her boyfriend.) If I could time travel, I would have told my wife after the first incident: "You're not to see him again. If you do, I'm filing for divorce, and you're moving out of the house - WITHOUT our son." And after the second incident, I would have done precisely that - and never looked back.

I'm not suggesting that I'd still be married if I'd followed this course of action, but my chances would have been a helluva lot better if I had. As it was, I made some incredibly damaging tactical errors - paramount among them, moving out of the house. (Stupid, right?) Had my ex been the one to hit the road, and been deprived of her home, child and all the luxuries of the household, she would have had a very powerful shock to her system. As it was, she lost nothing except that which she wanted to get rid of in the first place: me. What a fool I was. This is hard ball, my man - make no mistake about it. It's really a take no prisoners type of situation. You're in a fight for your life and your childrens' lives.

Try to learn from my mistakes, Cruise.

Basil Duke

You don't set boundaries without consequences...these are called deal breakers....the rules and regs of the marriage road.  

If you catch your W with an OM in an EA OR PA ..

First Offense:  NO CONTACT with OM and going into individual and marriage therapy...All accounts cell, e-mail, social networks (FB, MySpace, ETC) open to viewing...including journals or diaries.

Second offense:  Same as above with more intense supervision OR W moves out of martial home, no children go with her....H seeks legal advice for divorce or separation with the possibility that she can return if she can maintain NO Contact and therapy outside of home.  Limited financial support from H unless legally obligated. 

Third Offense:  File for divorce.

This is a tough love situation ...you are more than likely dealing with an addict...a person who is addicted to people..they will risk EVERYTHING..just like a drug addict or an alcoholic will for the drug or the drink.  The NO Contact is in an effort to get them out of their addiction stupor and to take away the drug...the OM...any type of contact with them is a FIX..  

If you don't follow the above...you are enabling their bad behavior...

Shepherdess

Cruise7 said "Does anyone have a GOOD story to tell? You know, they never got physical, it didn't last very long and now things are better than ever before. Is this impossible? If it is, and we're able to endure whatever this mind-blowing thing does to us, how will I know we made it safely to the other side?"

I have a good story to tell.... my EA relationship did not get physical and things are better than before. I feel like I am still in MLC and still think about the OM sometimes, but feel like I am not going to have an affair or leave my husband over it. I have put it in perspective.

I think it does help that you have become aware of things early, that your wife is aware of her MLC and is seeing a therapist. I am not an expert by any means about what a man in your situation should do and I suppose it depends on your wife's personality. My husband did not do any of the things suggested by Shepherdess or Basilduke. He chose to trust me and not try to control the situation. He never told me I could not continue emailing or that there would be consequences. What he did do it talk to me a lot and he would ask me questions about what I was feeling. I cannot look him in the eye and lie to him and he knows it. He took the attitude of "if you love something set it free and if it comes back it is yours... etc." and he told me so. And he chose to trust me. I know a lot of the women married to the men who spend time on this site were able to lie and could not be trusted.

MLC for me has been much like adolescence and for me "control" by him in any form would have produced a negative result. If he had read my diaries or tracked internet activity or anything like that it would have turned me away from him. I am not saying that this is not the thing to do in some situations, but for our relationship it might have been the end of us if my husband had done these things.

This is just a different perspective. I think every situation is different.

After I began to suspect the worst, my ex-wife lied repeatedly to my face about the nature of her relationship with her boyfriend. In fact, she actually denied that there even WAS a relationship - until I caught them on a date. And, following that, when I trusted her to do the right thing and end it, she escalated the affair from "emotional" to "physical." I put no boundaries on her, other than to explain to her in very plain terms that she couldn't have a husband AND a boyfriend. There were no repurcussions laid out for her. I was a naive lamb - ripe for the MLC slaughter.

Snooping would have uncovered this sordid situation much earlier. She had the SOB's name saved in her cell phone under "Marion" - a feminine name that happens to be his actual middle name. Had I been devious enough to check, I would have seen a very dense text mailing history between ex-wife and "Marion" that went back to June - immediately after the swine came to work at her company. Of course, this corresponded precisely with my ex's decision to switch all of our cell phone payments from conventional paper bills to an on-line format. No more bills or call histories came to the house. It was all in the computer - my ex-wife's computer. This was her ONE bill to handle - and handle it she did. Kept me completely out of the loop while she nurtured her little love affair.

When things really started simmering, she began taking her cell phone with her everywhere - including to the toilet. Never left her sight. She held on to that thing like it was a lifeline. Actually, it was a direct line to her drug fix.

The problem is, Struggling, is that the vast majority of MLC women (in my opinion) simply cannot be trusted - any more than a heroin junkie can be trusted. Once they begin to collapse in on their "special friend," and give themselves permission to commit adultery, it's almost always end game. No turning back. If Cruise wants to save his family, he's got to take a hardline approach - and NOW. It's the only way.

Shepherdess describes the OM addiction as wrestling with the devil. I find this to be an apt description. Whatever infected my ex-wife, robbed her of her dignity and morals and turned her into a cultural cliche ("Mrs. Robinson") was certainly not of this world. She turned her back on her only child, jettisoned her life partner of 24 years into outer space and will be on the verge of financial ruination for the rest of her life. And there was nothing I could do about it. Nothing! Because once I realized what I was dealing with, it was far too late. Grappling with the devil, indeed.

Basil Duke
Moderator  

I do understand that you and my husband were fighting different monsters. I was less than honest with my husband in the beginning too. I didn't volunteer information and he didn't ask. But once I realized how emotionally involved I was in the EA, I eventually did volunteer that information as hard as it was. If he had asked me the right questions earlier, I would have told him the truth. I know that dishonesty is dishonesty and leaving out information can be as bad as out and out lying. It's just that the out and out lying is harder for me. I am just not good at it and people who are close to me can see it.

And maybe if the affair and the MLC had progressed further and if I had gone further off the deep end I would have changed and been able to lie about it. I just wonder if it does any good for a husband to try and control it once it gets to that point.

P.S. I just want to add that lots of talking and asking your wife questions about what she is feeling and doing is a good idea. If you have been married a long time you might be able to tell if she is being honest or not.

Well, to me, it's not a control issue; it's a matter of self-preservation. If Cruise tells his wife to stop dating her boyfriend or he'll divorce her, the power is all with her. It's HER decision to date or not to date. Cruise is merely saying, "If you continue to do "X", I'm going to do "Y." Look at it this way: if your husband were going to topless beaches with a young neighbor woman, and you told him his behavior was unacceptable and had to stop, would you consider yourself to be trying to 'control' him? Probably not. You'd consider yourself a woman trying to keep her husband out of the neighbor woman's bed. And you'd consider your husband wayyyyy out of line.

At one point, after I'd confirmed her affair, my ex-wife - in listing her grievances against me - shrieked: "And you were always trying to control me! You never wanted me going out for drinks with people from work!"

True enough. But I then had to point out to her the rather obvious truth: at that very moment, as she ranted at me about my long-standing aversion to her getting liquored up with men from work, she was engaged in a sexual relationship with a guy from work! Go figger!

My point is, there was no talking sense to her. In her mind, I was trying to control her because I didn't want her sleeping with men from work. I guess that made me a real SOB. But I can tell you this: If I EVER remarry, I'll be my wife's date at each and every work happy hour she attends. Controlling? No way, ma'am: it's called self-preservation.

Struggling, I have to disagree with your suggestion that Cruise ask his wife questions about her feelings. I think that's precisely what he SHOULDN'T be doing. I tried that with my ex, and it drove her even further away. "I don't KNOW what I feel! I just know I don't want to be here, with you!" She took my interest in her "feelings" as a sign of pathetic and futile weakness. It served absolutely no purpose. She was so confused and twisted and numb that she didn't know what she was thinking or where she was headed. Told me she couldn't think more than one day ahead, if that. All she knew was that she had given herself permission to commit adultery.

Which she did. As often as possible.

Basil Duke 

I see both of your sides to this discussion....

There is a time in the MLC Process or Journey that a husband can talk or encourage communication with their W.  It is extremely earlier on in the process when much of the MLC can and is "Running Silent".  This seems to be the point to which struggling was able to talk with her H...she was able/comfortable in communicating these emotions without feeling that she would be dismissed or told to" get over it".  Many husbands can't do this with other things in the Marriage/relationship, so the W figures that her MLC rumblings will be met will the same  dismissive attitude or inability to understand...so no discussion occurs or progresses no farther past "You won't understand what I am going through."  This is a RED FLAG statement if I ever heard of one.

The key to the success of struggling situation AND sbreeze's situation IS the fact that their husband's from the beginning had open communication...PLUS admittedly both women had a strong moral ethic about lying....or other facets of having an affair...like keeping secrets or the betrayal that occurs.  Many women in MLC lose touch with their ability to hold to these moral/ethics...they give themselves permission to lie, keep secrets and betray their husband and children.

Again, I must reiterate that the communication must start at the first stages of MLC for the infidelity or EA/PA to be avoided or stopped....but I fear that many men are totally unaware that anything is happening until their MLC W is in to the second or third stages of MLC.  

This is where I believe Basil is speaking of...A husband MUST react proactively in his and his children's favor at the point that active infidelity is occurring or will occur with definite consequences. Letting the MLC W to go "FREE " and "sow her wild oats" or "have her cake and eat it too" is enabling bad behavior. Many women given an inch will take a mile...and when behavior is "hurting" not only the husband...but the children also....action must be taken.  Infidelity is not the only thing to be taken advantage of in many of these cases...many women fight for custody of their kids, when they should not be caring for their children at this time...they hurt the family financially and engage in behavior that is embarrassing to the whole family at large.  

It is at this stage of the MLC that TOUGH LOVE or DRASTIC action has to happen OR there will be more then just broken hearts involved.  In many of these cases, the drastic action has to occur to protect people and those material things that have been gained throughout the marriage/relationship. Dealing with the situation any other way will only enable the behavior and ultimately drag the whole thing out longer, eventually causing more harm then needed to be.

SO...Both of you are correct...depending on when you are acting.

Shepherdess 

Thank you Shepherdess. I think it's hard to tell from what cruise7 has written how far along his wife is in this.

I don't want to give the impression that I think what I was doing was ok because it was not and I don't think any married person should "put up with" any kind of infidelity whether it be physical or emotional.

Struggling, I wish I had heard your story earlier.  My wife sounds a lot like you.  She was getting involved in an EA and I was treating her like it was a PA.  Instead of giving her the space she needed to think, I was putting pressure on her that only drove her away.  From the beginning of our marriage she said she would need space from time to time and I have always given it to her.  This time, due to learning how she was feeling and finding inappropriate online activity, I found it hard to give her that space and now I fear I've pushed her too far away.

As for cruise7, your relationship sounds like mine.  I know I've gone to lunch many times with female co-workers and there is nothing to it more than lunch.  We even go to the same place quite often that could be called "our place".  My wife has gone to lunch and coffee with male friends and it's nothing more than that.  If I had it to do over again, I would have talked to her about her feelings and given her the room she needed to figure things out.  It had worked for the last 10 years, why wouldn't it work now?  The fact is, if there isn't anything going on and you question her about it and don't trust her, it's just going to push her away.

There is good advice on this site, but each persons situation is unique and you know her better than anybody, so go with your gut and hang in there.

Please reread what I have posted...a bit of caution is always good....it is a fine balance...knowing when to push and when not to.  The problem with many men is they want to "fix' everything for their wives...your wife doesn't necessarily need you to "fix" everything...what they want more than anything else is for your to just listen and then have the faith in her to take care of it herself.  It also doesn't hurt to tell your wives this also..."Honey, tell me when you want me to fix something for you...or when all you want me to do is just listen."  BUT this should be taught to young newlyweds...not men who are trying to keep their WI's from walking. The listening part and hands off should started from the beginning...she knew you would push at her.

Emotional or Physical Affairs are not something to play with....but in the end it is what each man is willing to tolerate to keep his marriage and his wife....AND...she can still walk away if you let her continue in the EA/PA. It is still a betrayal..there is still underlying problems that need to be worked out. 

I must re-emphasize that the goal of WINMLC is not to save marriages....it is to help you get through the MLC Journey with the least amount of destruction...give you knowledge about the textbook stages that occur during the MLC and encourage, strengthen and guide.  There is no right or wrong to what choice you make...because they are what they are.....the cause of the MLC happened long ago probably when you weren't even there...the MLC is just the effect that she is having to deal with in the present. Most importantly WINMLC is here to help protect the children(no matter the age) of those  who are dealing with MLC because these are the folks who in the end are receiving the collateral damage.

Foolinlove...stop questioning what you did with your wife...all the would of, should of could of's...will not have changed the outcome...keep DETACHing, my friend...none of this is your fault....you did your best with what you knew to do.  She would have found another way to run if you had not pushed...she was running already by having an EA.

Shepherdess

Thank God for you struggling - I knew it wasn't necessarily all doom and gloom. My question now is this: How do you phrase the question(s) about feelings without sounding cliched or intrusive. Her feelings are important to me, and I want to know what they are, but I don't want to come across as disingenuous. Thanks again struggling. cruise7

If struggling tells you what to say exactly you will sound fake, in genuine AND you WILL push her away.

She can suggest...but every situation IS different and every woman will handle the questions and prying differently.

You, cruise7, need to turn on your intuitive switch and truly LISTEN to your Wife.  Learn how to stop FIXING her or FIXING things for her.  I can tell from the way you jumped all over struggling's posts that you probably lean toward enabling...DON'T enable bad behavior.  

The key is to step back and let things happen, ask questions when they are needed or when your GUT tells you that they are needed.  Pay attention to Red  Flag situations...Read all you can about MLC in Women and be prepared if you start seeing signs that she is going off track.  Give her her freedom...independence..but be aware that there is pattern to this thing...you will know when it is going off course.  Plus if you sense something and come here to describe it...many times we have heard or seen it before.

Cruise7 you are looking for HOPE...and there is HOPE...but you can not force HOPE in a situation that is not going to go a certain way.  YOU have NO control over your wife's MLC ...only she does....by wanting to know what to say you are trying to manipulate her...Women in MLC HATE manipulation or feeling like they are being manipulated....though they are guilty of it themselves.

The secret to Women in MLC is gaining all the knowledge and understanding of all the different scenarios...being prepared for any and ALL possibilities and learning how to detach from the EMOTION that is wrapped in  the process.  

I am not saying that you stop loving her or caring...indeed you should still care and demonstrate it as long as this is not pushing her away.

Please realize the reason why you hear more doom and gloom instead of hopeful messages on these types of forums is because...escaping the storm of MLC with your marriage intact is low and when they do make it most successful situations don't stick around to report their success.  As of this date, I am aware of a few ... OnHoldAZ, sbreeeze1 and myself...struggling, magdalene, soccermom are still working through...but they are still at home working on their marriages.  It CAN happen as long as the WOMAN decides that this is what she wants to do.  It is ALL in your WIfe's hands really...YOU have no control over it....

STOP trying to control it...with the right questions and the right feelings.

Shepherdess

I am sorry. I really am not in the position to be giving any man advice about how to handle his wife's MLC. I think the way my husband has handled it was good for our relationship, but we are probably unique. He knows me well enough to know which buttons to push and which buttons not to push. I think the thing that made a difference for me it that he made it clear that he wanted me to be happy with or without him, if that was what it took. He would not have supported my continuing with the affair and probably would not have forgiven me if it had gotten physical. I think Shepherdess is right.. you need to listen, pay attention and be aware but ultimately it is up to her. I agree that you don't want to enable bad behavior. Being supportive doesn't mean that.

"MLC women HATE being manipulated or feeling like they're being manipulated." Oh ho, do I have a nice tale that dovetails in to that nugget. Happened about thirty minutes ago. Tuesdays are therapy night for my son. Gets out about eight. I always have the boy text his mom to let her know I'm bringing him by the house. She was out at dinner at the time, with one of her chief enablers, and told our child that she'd be home by nine. Son asked me to stay with him at the house for a bit, and I of course said 'sure.' I gave him a back scratch and was literally in the process of texting my ex that I was leaving, when she got home. My goodness was she furious at my presence. "You're not my husband any more and yet here you sit, monitoring me and sitting there until I get home! You don't control me! No one bothered to let me know you were going to be here." (As you might surmize, the brief thaw in relations between my ex and me took a turn for the frigid in the last few days - a tale I don't have time to get into here). I listened to her bluster and fume, and then pointed out to her that (a) She'd told our son she wasn't going to be home until nine; (b) she had shown up at 8:30: (c) our son had asked me to stay and (d) I was texting her when she showed up to let her know I was leaving. (Truth be told, I wanted to be gone when she got there.)

She scoffed until I showed her the text, which I had saved as a draft. This deflated her a bit, but she was still bristling at my impudence and berserk need to control her as I bid her a fond adieu. (By the way, the house is still in my name - and I'm walking away from it without a red cent in equity because she's so frigging broke.) 

I dare say the former Mrs. Duke is still wrestling with the devil.