in crisis

I think I heard you yell DETACH! at the computer.

I am.....I just think out loud to you all. Throw something out there see what you all think...besides the fact that I obess. Guilty!!

I just throw a thought out there, and yes I also do it to get messages back like yours Shep, and Basils, to keep me on my path.

I don't know what developments may be an oppurtunity or not, don't want to miss anything. So I'm doing pretty good, got lots to do this weekend, and I can't do anything about the situation......

I got it ...Detach.....

That's right, MLB. Detach! Today is my mother's 74th birthday, and I'm about to drive out of state with my son to see her, so I'll be off-grid for the next day or so. My ex-wife STILL hasn't had any contact with my mom since September 2008. None whatsoever. Yesterday, on the phone, my mother told me: "I'm almost afraid TO see her again. I'm afraid I'll just grab her and give her a big hug." I told her that I hoped that's exactly what WOULD happen, and that as soon as she (mom) saw her former daughter in law, and realized what a physical wreck she's become, any animus in her heart would dissolve instantly. Very, very bittersweet. Have a good weekend!

Happy Birthday to your Mum...Basil!  She must be a GREAT woman...she shares her birthday with my second daughter...one more day and she and I would have shared birthdays...mine is November 8th...a good month for Scorpio women...I bet she is fiesty and loves deeply...most women born in the beginning of November do.  Give her a BIG BIRTHDAY hug from us here...travel safely and let us know how you are when you return.

Shepherdess

Have a great trip Basil......check in when you get back. I'll probably need an Eddie Stick moment.

Happy B-Day to your mom, Happy B-Day to Shep's 2nd daughter, and Happy B-Day Shep!!

Got the kids here, coming and going, going to do some yard work, I'll check in later.

Anyone here from Jack lately???

Hey....

I had to email the wife about if she did all the hoops for the child support to be paid and so on. She called me on her lunch hour and said she would follow up...

Akward silence.

She asked if I would give her the time if we could talk  about "things".

I pressed that I wanted to know what the "things" were, and she danced around and said " I just want you to know things are good between me and OM", (like I care, but I thiought it was funny she said that)....but that she can not not see our daughter but once a week, and talk 5 mins on the phone, she misses our son, and her home...ect I told her I have heard all this before!

I reminded her that we are a "3" package that I come with the kids. She said she knows things are bad between us, and she understands if I would not like to pursue it, but talk about her coming home.

I told her:

First I would have to think on it for a few days
We three have put our lives back together w/o her as she chose to leave
She said she knows she would have to give up OM, I said AND he needs to know that, and that she would not be the one to tell him, I or we would.
She would have to be IN counseling individually as would I, and do couples counseling at the appropriate time
She has to earn our trust back, earn her way back into the family, that it is an "all" in thing

If she had any ideas of doing what she did the last time, my answer is no, she said it would not be like last time.

I told her to think on those things, plus a few others, and she told me to think on my end also.

I said give me a call Saturday, we'll meet somewhere away from home just the 2 of us, and see.

What do you think Shep?? 3 months is 12 days away.

MLBHOME

Immediate reaction...I need to think on this:
If everything is so great with OM...why does she want to come home?  This makes no sense at all...unless they have mutually decided to end it and she has no where to go. He may have given her a certain amount of time to find a place to go or even get you to take her back.  This is my gut reaction...

Gut reaction - Pray hard see if it truly is an opening  or if it just an easy fix.  She needs to return to YOU...1st...not just the kids.  If she is just coming home to be with the kids and take the pressure off in that department...well, that isn't a solution and not what you want. 

Remain detached...worried1's wife is doing the same thing, but is not doing the work or remorseful about what she has done...she is keeping on the line because he agreed to help her in some things....and I believe she is waiting until this legal and financial stuff works there way out ...and then she is going to run again...she is not invested!

You must make sure that she is invested before she steps one foot back in to the house.  You  MUST ask your lawyer what her coming home means in the court/divorce case...does it take her off the hook and is she just coming home to make those things null and void...and then after the holidays she takes off again.  Starting everything from scratch and with her having a bit more of her own cash in her pocket and the ability to get her own apartment AND be able to take your D with her.

Call the lawyer and ask these questions before you meet with her...don't meet unless you know what her coming home will mean IF she decides to leave again.  (In VA if you return and your husband accepts you back...nothing that has happened before the return home can be brought up in court again...SO, the OM and the fact that she lived with him for months could not be brought up or held against her....Is this true where you are from?  She may be doing this under the advise of her lawyer.)

I hate to say this ..but I would go on the side of caution and her statement about things being good btwn her and OM really does make NO sense. 

Call your lawyer...this sounds like it may be a legal bait and switch...I mean it is coming out of the blue...yet I pray that it isn't and my three month theory is what is going on...you will know in her actions...NOT her words...ACTIONS and willing to do anything and everything AND if you get even one drop of a taste of resentment , blame or bitterness toward you...shut it down and tell her NO!

SHepherdess


 

I have done some investigating, but first thing in the morning I will call my attny and ask the questions you have brought up.

Secondly, this is out of the blue to me. Funny thing my Indy BIL called yesterday and after some "how are you" chit chat we talked about the situation and discussed return scenarios.

After W phone call today, I called him, and he told me that he had talked to her 10 days ago, in which he spoke to her at length about her descisons and behavior and such and he felt there were some cracks in the denial, and some "fishing" to see what is what about coming back. He said the same as you chk with attny. He thinks based on some of the things she said that the fantasy is wearing off.

BIL also said she has spoken with her mother who has been telling her to get out away from OM, get into counseling, get your life back and so on.

I'm going to call MIL in the morning.

The call she made to me was a response to a text and email I sent about whether she had done the paperwork to the new job so that the support $$ are deducted, submitted to the state, then remitted to me.

As usual she didn't know what was happening, thought her attny did it all, and was going to follow up on it.

Then was the ackward silence...then the "if you could give me some time on Saturday to talk, I said about what, 'the kids', "about us" "what's going on"...I told her there was nothing to talk about, she left, wants to spend the rest of her life with OM, filed for divorce, lives 35 miles away, and so on.

She said she knows how bad she hurt me and the kids, long silence.........
....I just told her just say it, whatever it is....she misses the kids, can not go on not seeing daughter and son, I said we come as a 3 package, and she said she wanted to see if there was a possibility of talking about "working out things between us", by now she was crying, and I said why you have OM, that's when she said things were good between them, and she knows she would have to give him up, to which I replied, then why come back here if things are so good.?? She was crying, and had to get back to work, and said I'll tell you more later. I said you have to decide to come back because that's what you want to do, knowing that you have to be IN counseling, mentoring, and earn your way back, and that you want to come back to ME!. She was very quiet, contrite, and said "I know".

I said ok, let's stop here, we both have things to think about let's take a few days till Sat... and the list of things in my previous post I told her, and that she needs to think hard on them.

I asked about her job, she said she loves it, is much happier working there then she has been in a long time.

In talking to BIL, we thought that if she is serious, she needs to demonstrate it, like getting away from OM, and stay with one of her uncles, for a start.

My gut tells me, (not in any order), the $$, the kids, the drive, the holidays, new job, perhaps the fog lifting a little concerning the fantasy may be things on her mind.

I was very direct, business like, detached, and ...don't believe a thing she said.

I have my spies at OM's work looking into if he is leaving for the weekend
to go to FLA. for golf, and the shuttle launch.

So I have some investigating to do, I will up date as info becomes available. I'm kinda afraid that if she is serious, if I want to get into all this again.

Hope your surviving the storm
 

Spoke at length w/ MIL this morning. She had also been wanting to call me.

MIL spoke with W for "a long time" this past Saturday by phone. In a nut shell, MIL commented that it is the first and most porductive conversation with W since all this started. MIL talked with W about

OM relationship: W said that she and OM are good, but MIL said she questioned her a length and had to pull some info out of her. OM spends just about every night after work beer drinking w/ buddies. OM has gone out of town several times and IS leaving at noon tomorrow to go to FLA to play golf and watch space shuttle launch on Monday. MIL said "how do you feel that he has gone on with his life, not changed a thing, while you have given up everything...has he even taken you out to dinner??"
Silence, then MIL pressed for an answer, W said " no he has not taken me out to anything".

MIL tried to impress on her what does her future hold.?? She said "tell me what your future is? What happens if divorce is final and he decides he has had enough of you. How do you know that HE is not cheating on you since he is not home at all, and does nothing with you?? W had no answer

On $$$: MIL asked about the child support, attny fees, her expenses. W said the "money situation is a mess, and now owing MLB because of the court, I don't have any. MIL asked has OM offered to help??.....no,, he has no $$$, but he's going to FLA for a week!

On the kids: W devastated that son will not communicate with her, and that daughter no longer has the time. MIL asked is what OM doing for you worth not seeing your children again. W related that this past Friday when she was out with daughter that daughter was so beat that she wanted to go home. W said that if she was home D would have curled up and put her head in W's lap and slept (D always did that even at 15), MIL said W started to cry and MIL told her for that to happen you have to go home.

On Me:
MIL said what kind of man is OM who knows you are married with children, struggling emotionally, and tells you all kind of lies that you want to believe, and you twice leave your children and husband, cheat, lie and betray and he encourages it, and continues with his life after you have given up everything?  MIL told her if you want to know what a real man is ...that's MLB, who even after what you have done to him and the children, still looks out for you, is concerned about you, has tolerated you through this...that's what a true man is (I didn't add anything to this) W told her that she "now knows how horrible I treated him when I was home, how he tried everything to help me, tried to talk to me,
tried to keep things together, and I was so $hitty to him". MIL told her she should be ashamed of herself, and wife said she was.

MIL told her to think hard, that if you approach MLB perhaps if you two could just talk.... W said that she hasn't spoke to me in weeks and knows that I have had enough. Her MIL told her to try. MIL talked to her about counseling and W didn't shut her down, said that perhaps that's what she needs. MIL also told her if you want anyone to believe you, that you want another chance, to "call one of your uncles there, and ask to stay with them while you get yourself together. End it with OM, get into counseling, and then talk more to MLB. Both of your uncles have offered to take you in, but you have to end it for good with OM."  FIL would not speak to her. Also spoke to her about the holidays, and how much she would be missed, but her and FIL's purpose now is to get me and the kids to FLA for some R&R, and to Ohio, for Xmas.

There was more but you get the idea. MIL also told me that she spoke with YSIL from Indy last night and that W called and spoke to BIL for an hour w/ BIL reinforcing MIL conversation of Saturday.

He said he give me a call tonite.

MIL said, she told YSIL last nite that she felt that a little bit of lite may now be getting through, that W cried as hard as MIL has ever heard her.

W is taking D out for dinner this evening......

MLB:

Very interesting...

Here is my gut reaction...This is all very interesting developments.  Tonight when she picks up D, even on Saturday...All you do is listen to her...LISTEN...and....then tell her you know what you need to do.  You must demonstrate to all three of us and especially to ME that your intentions are genuine.  Move out of OM's house, No Contact with OM, get into counseling, restart our relationship...but this is all going to happen outside of our home at first...until we three decide you can be allowed back home.  

Make sure this all passes the grade with your lawyer, as I have mentioned the reasoning in my previous post.

This all sounds good...caution and paying great attention to all the details will be important.  PRAYER...lots and lots of prayer...look for God's leading...urging here..He will let you know the truth.  If you would like to talk...I am here if you need.

Shepherdess

PS Please do not be too quick to let her back in all the way.  Please see what is going on with worried1...I am not saying that this is the same...but caution at first until you see the remorse and the willingness to to do Anything and everything to get back in to the family and the home...the tables turn...she will risk EVERYTHING to get back in ...

In speaking to MIL this morning, and I spoke with BIL yesterday, (and this represents all the "family", FIL, W's brother, ESIL and so on) and they have the grapevine going so here's what we have decided..I represented my self and you, (hope you don't mind).

MIL and BIL are feeling that the fantasy is starting to show holes. MIL said today the fact that she and W were able to calmly and cooly have a discussion as I outlined, that W listened  was a bit of a surprise. MIL was ready for WW3 but she said it was all very calm.

Our plan is this....I will meet her as she asked. I will listen....I'm going to let the past go, keeping score on who did what to who will not change the fact that it happened but may effect the outcome.

Regardless of what she is after, (except if he's hitting her, which I don't think is happening) she calls one of her uncles and goes there. That puts her out of the OM apt, puts her 30 miles away from him, puts her closer to us.

She needs to end it, no contact, verifiable no contact. And we tell him the both of us.

Gets into counseling with the Christian counseling service I have found, it's near her work, focusing on addiction.

Depending on the time frame of this, and if she keeps her word that this is being done, I'll start to have her over to dinner, and she and I will start over.

I'm willing to do that much PROVIDED that I see the remorse, the willingness to do whatever it takes,
and DOING what is outlined above. Excuses, foot dragging, stubborness, are deal breakers.

I may not see that yet, or hear it, she may be just seeing how far she will have to go first. However if she needs more time, that's ok, as my situation is not effected if she can't pull the trigger right away.

My MIL, FIL, and BIL are adament that she not return to the house right away. She needs to put an end to this on her own, we also would grudgingly put her up in a hotel, splitting the costs, but it would be very near the house, but we would rather she be with one of the uncles/aunts as that way she can be alone to work on her issues, but not alone in a hotel room. I will not offer this, if needed her mother will.

My MIL has spoken to her 2 brothers here (W's uncles) and they are on board, provided she has eneded it w OM, and they will relieve her of her cell phone if needed.

I have not mentioned this to the kids ......I figure wait and see.

There will be other boundries, but I think for now if she can do these things, then we'll add boundries.
I think the first issue is to convince her to get away from him by her own decision.

I'm going to be straight forward, very clear, and let her know we will all be here for her, but this first step she has to do because she wants to. If the rational lies start or she tries to drag me off topic, conversation ends till such time as she can focus on the work she needs to do.

How's that sound??

You got It!!!  You have learned well...Luke Skywalker...Let the Force be with you

Shepherdess

PS  I absolutely agree with your MIL, FIL, BIL...no coming home right away...she needs to earn that right AND your children do have a say or vote on whether or not she does OR if they are ready for her to come home.

HEY!!! YOU MEAN I"M THINKING RIGHT, WO-HOO!!!

Just spoke to BIL who spoke to wife last night. Long story short about the same as talk with MIL, somethings that are different:

He asked through out the conversation about how is the relationship between W and OM. He just randomly flung the question out there. He got 3 very non-comittal "fine". Then he said, you know what is fine?? 

She said fine, "just...fine". He asked her you know your not selling me.....she got very quiet, and he said, perhaps it's "fine" "but...not what you thought?"...she was quiet, and he said that's" ok"

He is convinced that things are not peachy over there.

W told him she is devastated that son has not contacted her....she did not believe he would hold out this long. She is afraid that the relationship can't be saved, BIL told her , well you knew that by doing what you did and are doing, he told you. That's reality.

She also told him that her relationship with D is dying, and he said here again, you knew that, and convinced yourself that she would be fine with it...she's not.

Nothing else earth shattering, only that she is afraid if she comes back, "what if I'm not happy?'
He told her" are you truely happy now, looking at everything that's happened, and how things were to how they are now, are YOU happy"?

She was silent he said, and told her do you have an answer?" I don't know" is what she said.

He said she's confused, mixed up, BUT he said it was a good conversation as she took his call, OM was at the bar, and he felt that at times the fog lifted a little, that she grasped some of what he said, when before she would not even had listened.

I told him the plan, he agrees, suggested I just go and softly lay some groundwork, set some parameters 
and then let it go, and let her think.

So, something is going on........with her and OM...MLBHOME

P.S.---Stick around Yoda, I'm going to need you! Where's Han (Basil) Solo??

I haven't forgotten you, MLB. I've been tracking your latest developments, and am thinking about you and your children. It would appear that you're going to have a very interesting weekend. Good luck and keep your fists up!

Basil

You bet....I just don't know if I'm being manipulated.

The last time she only spoke to me about coming back, but this time, she contacted her mom, and BIL before approaching me.

My BIL doesn't think she has crashed yet, but feels her reaching out to them, and then reaching out to me herself may be a slight thaw.

He described his conversation with her as...somewhat more rational, not 100% but the best since all this started. He says she's afraid, that if she comes back how does she know it's right. He asked if you stay with OM how do you know THAT's right??

This is the conflict that has existed all along. That's her issue with committing either way. Which is right??

So, I'm treading very softly, barely going to peak my head out of the foxhole.

To me...she has to prove her worth. On her own, leave him, tell him she's done, and go to an uncle's.

Then we can talk some more.

Thought may be that squirrel put your tum tum on the dum dum!

You're wise to wonder about the possibility of manipulation. The one thing I have to continually remind myself is that even though my ex occasionally makes human-like noises, she's still deep in the denial tar pit. Her pathetic boyfriend may be long gone, but the mindset that introduced him - atom bomb like - into my old life remains. To be crude about it: she's still nuts. Hell, MLB, she might stay that way. I must assume that she will, and move on. You're in a different place, but it's still a very dangerous place to be.
 
My take on your wife: she's miserable. The 'OM' has showed his true colors. Her son has written her off. Her daughter isn't too far away from doing the same thing. She's broke. Her entire family has turned on her. But she's still in crisis. And she's still stubborn and stupidly prideful. Whatever it was that prompted her to run the first two times still lurks in her mind - a fearsome threat. Right now, I'd say she's being honest, if typically selfish, when she declared: "I don't know if I can be happy there [back at home]." It remains all about her. A bad sign.
 
Not trying to bring you down, but you've done this dance twice before. Be very, very careful about stepping on to the dance floor a third time.
 
Basil Duke

I hear you load and clear. I'm approaching this battle hardened from the last episode in July.

I have nothing to redirect me from the thought that she has some "other" reason for the reaching out.

I don't know, momentary sanity, I don't know. But I have to see it thru. Not expecting anything

but more mlc, bilge

To me...I agree Basil he has shown his true colors, is she seeing it, perhaps, but admitting it
no. To admit it, brings down the fantasy house of cards on top of her, which may spring open the trap door of guilt, shame and embarrassment.

I think she is scared, scared to say "help me", and afraid of the what if's....what if I come back and I'm not happy at home, then I gave up happiness with OM. Well it's pretty clear to all of us that she is not happy with him, and I agree miserable. May be that's why he left out of town today for a week, sick of her being miserable around him.

Perhaps he gave her the ultimatum...get in step with me or get out, and with the fantasy not being what she hoped, she is hedging her bets, trying to keep her a$$ covered at both ends, and knowing her, to try and come home with minimal effort on her part.

Struggling commented that counseling helped her in dealing with her denial, and then she was able to "see" more clearly.

To us here, ( her family) our first goal is to get her to try and "see" OM for what he is. She left us because he made her happy, but clearly he has not, so she needs to realize that he is not her answer.

If we can get her to, on her own, not bribed, not threatened to call one of her uncles and get out and away from this nut job, and get into counseling, then we can talk...talk about coming home.

Her mother told me that her pride is now one of the issues, and I'm going to try and adress that.
Too prideful to ask for help, again to her I'm sure that's admission that this was all wrong. But if she does get's to one of her uncles (and we stayed with both various times in moving here 12 yrs ago) she will be on her best behavior, and they are straight forward folks, who brook no BS, and both have talked to her previously and she responds to them, because she respects them.

She is already pestering daughter that she will be alone for a week, that they can get together whenever,
which is driving daughter nuts.

MLBHOME

I know several idiots here in St. Louis that sound a lot like your wife's roommate. Middle-aged men whose emotional maturity flattened out at about the age of 15. A casual female friend of mine lives with just such a 'man.' He's been gone "on business" for the last three weeks - and everybody except my friend knows that he was in reality shacking up with his "other woman" the entire time he was gone. This guy is almost 50 and a grandfather. Married twice. Charisma of a salted slug. Smokes dope every chance he gets, finds immense humor in public flatulence, and has women sprinkled all over the state of Missouri. And my friend considers him her "soulmate." She's 41.

I can practically guarantee you that this swine wants your wife out of his life. She's a bum trip, man - 'fun' for a few weeks, but no longer. Think about it: your wife ADMITTED that her dreamboat doesn't do anything with her. He hasn't changed a single thing about his pathetic existence: drink, golf, and repeat. He sounds a lot like a high school boy. He is never going to change. Ever. He'll die alone, and be buried with his favorite golf club, in lieu of a photograph of his children. (Because he won't, thankfully, reproduce.)

I'm going to share an observation with you that will probably not set well. But it needs to be said. I think you need to begin bracing yourself for the possibility that although your wife is seeing the light with her soulmate, she might decide that she really and truly is done with her old, married life. It happens. Hell, it happened to me! My ex's relationship with the college turd disintegrated almost immediately, but that didn't deter her from her mad dash for freedom. Sure, it's a freedom that features an empty bank account and a tattered relationship with her son, but she's free! That's what she decided she wanted - away from me. And that's what she got. It might be the same way with your wife.

Sorry if that depresses you, but I'd hate to see you get your hopes up, only to have her pump another volley of toxic darts into them.

 Right now, I'd say she's being honest, if typically selfish, when she declared: "I don't know if I can be happy there [back at home]." It remains all about her. A bad sign.      

-basilduke

This is the same thing that stuck out to me MLB...there should be no doubt in her mind that where she wants to be is at home....she may not be happy at first...BUT home is where you go to be safe, loved, and content....it is there that the people you most trust, love and know will care for you when you DO break open.....Happy comes later...I assure you....she need to know and understand this very fine tuned fact.  At this point in your life "Happy' is good and it is only a WANT...but all the other things a person NEEDS to be happy or at least be able to get through the day.  God never promised happy.  Think about what SB1 said about her coming out of the MLC...reconnecting with her emotions and her history....some of the "Happy" which is connected to gratitude and appreciation for what God has given  a person lies within this history.

I do not think she is telling the whole story behind the OM...but I do believe she is waking up to the person that he is and that it was ALL a bunch of lies.  All of a sudden her Knight in shining armor really turns out to be the King's Fool!  I know this one very well!!! 

You do realize that ALL of this has NOT been about the OM really...he is just one of the many symptoms of her overall problem.  SO your plan of staying at Uncles and go to counseling is a sound plan...she needs to know that she doesn't get back in easily just because she has decided she wants to come home. 

NOW is the time that Dorothy gets tasked with getting the witches broom! She discovers the Wiz isn't what he said he was AND that she always had the power to go home, but if anyone had told her she wouldn't have believed them.  The thing is IS this...she has to know what the lesson is or was...if she doesn't know what the lesson is she has to still figure this part out.  No coming home or clicking her heels until then. 

So, my dear Toto...you must be patient because you chose to leave Dorothy in OZ .  You came home with Uncle Henry and Auntie Em...you must wait patiently for Dorothy to still learn the lesson, otherwise she will just run off to Oz again.

Shepherdess